Seated in a wooden desk in a dark room, we analyzed Renaissance masterpieces in Art History 350. Voluptuous women, passionate men, and biblical themes frozen in painted time depicted exaggerated themes of times long ago. Sucked into the the narrative of art, worlds ages removed came alive as my favorite professor explained iconography, spacial planes, and contrapposto.
She taught melodically and her voice lured in students much like a siren lures sailors. I wanted so desperately to please her and prove that I too loved what she loved.
When questions were asked, I was the first to answer. When readings were assigned, I didn’t sigh like the Philistines in the room. No, not me. I was ready to win her affection and garnish the crown of laurel much like the Roman-Greco athletes won in the art I copiously studied.
Each time she flashed a biblical art piece from her outdated slide projector onto the screen, I would be the one to explain the context. She knew I had a biblical upbringing because I could provide a wide context for the piece, so she let me casually discuss each work for a brief Biblical minute.
But one day in the dark room as we analyzed slides, she said something I’d never heard. And that is by huge problem with Paul the Apostle and Christianity, she said in a posh and educated New England accent. Jesus was a feminist, but Paul, oh no, he was misogynistic.
I didn’t know what misogynistic meant, so I remained quiet as she delivered a passionate Feminist sermon on the Biblical oppression of women. I left class confused, intrigued, unnerved, and questioning everything I had been taught in Sunday school.
During her office hours, I sheepishly asked her to explain what she meant in class. For the next two hours she and another female professor from the Art History department gave me a crash course in Feminism and the Bible. With each raised arm and unshaven armpit they brazenly bashed the New Testament and I—well, I sat there and listened.
I share this memory with you because we all have dealt with the topic of Feminism… and if you’re anything like me, I’m sure you were intrigued or unnerved. I won’t share the aftermath of this experience quite yet. I want to hear from YOU. Dialogue freely yet respectfully. Above all, let our filter be a Biblical one.
- Whether you’re a female or male, churched or unchurched, what are your thoughts on Feminism, neo-Feminism, or biblical Feminism?
- If you’re a man, in what ways do you like or dislike what the Feminist movement of the 1960s brought about?
- I’m researching some history and your insights are greatly appreciated 🙂
Oh wow.
I'm not sure where to start so I will simply say this…
We are all created in God's image.
And God used both men and women in the Bible to do huge things. And in a time when women were basically property.
The end 🙂
PS… I'll probably have more to say after some other people comment. Ha!
WOW!! I just sat with a group of women on Saturday and we discussed our roles as women and Mothers . Too much to write maybe one day we can talk face to face about this : )
Don't chicken out! Bring it!!! I want your thoughts… need your thoughts. I'm putting together a study on this…
My husband and I were blessed to travel to see that painting you attached here in person! I wish we'd had a bigger art knowledge to more deeply appreciate what we saw.
Personally, I've never heard the term Biblical Feminism. But I know my pastors have addressed the issue somewhat by saying that Christianity is a "female friendly" religion. Jesus first appeared to women, he spoke with the woman at the well and other prostitutes to help them change the course of their life. He didn't discriminate between the Samaritan or Gentile, fisherman or rabbi. He picked the weak, meek and lowly to show God's power and sufficient grace.
best I can do on a Monday. Happy Wedding planning!!
Carrie
HA! I'm kind of with Diandra, thinking, "Oh. My. Well….."
I call myself a feminist. And I'm with Diandra that we are all created in God's image. And also, that given the time in which Jesus walked the earth, the fact that He used women at all, much less in some of the ways they were used, speaks volumes.
And honestly, the 'unshaven-armpit' description thrown in took me back for a second. I know plenty of feminists who are also feminine. Then again, the feminists of the 60s were as brash as they had to be in order to shake up the status quo and quite honestly, they're kind of scary to me. 😉
I do think that there are a large number of churches (and men) out there who have used certain passages within the Bible in misogynistic ways that have done harm to many women out there. I've had it happen to me, as I was in an abusive marriage but told that it was my fault and how I should behave (while staying) 'Biblically' in order to 'be a good woman.' (Talk about adding insult to injury.)
There's a wide range of feminism out there in the world that is probably too complex to put into just one comment. But it's one reason I posted about it one day. Just to put it out there that not all feminists don't shave their armpits and not all Christian women want to be stay-at-home moms…..there's a wide complex range within the two stereotypical extremes.
P.S. I might be back later too. HA
Possibly the best book on this topic is Carolyn McCulley's book Radical Womanhood!
Well, I'll leave most of this to the ladies but I think a huge black mark for the feminist movement is the notion that somehow a woman who stays home, raises her kids, loves her husband and takes care of the home is less of a woman than one who assaults the ivory towers of the corporate world. I've heard it said way too many times by way too many women. Homemakers aren't "missing out" or somehow "less than a real woman" because of their choosing to follow that path.
God has completely changed my heart, but in that I have NOT lost my identity/passions. Rather, He's shown me that I can use the giftings He has given me WHILE serving my husband. There is complete freedom in biblical order. Yes, I've been called to submit, which *is* hard, but what I've realized is that guys have a much harder job. They are called to love JUST AS Christ loved the Church, they must be prepared to give up their life for the sake of their wife. I'm not really articulating this well… but, I do know that the Holy Spirit has softened my heart and created in me a desire to live UNDER covering, and THAT is a miracle. 🙂
Ahhh. So interesting.
So just with my basic knowledge of feminism. (And stories I've heard from a woman who went to one of those big feminist conferences.) To me… eh. Haha. To my understanding this desire for a complete egalitarian view/practice in society is what feminism is. It has turned into this 'man-bashing' it seems, but I think in it's purest form, it calls for equality.
Was Jesus a feminist?
Why do you want to label and limit Christ??
Did he value women? Of course.
In my marriage–do I feel like I have to raise a big stink about being treated with 'respect' and having an equal relationship?? I don't know. I don't think I've mentioned it much. I totally embrace my weaker vessel role. (I have had friends CRINGE when I say this, but I also get high fives from other men when I say this. HAHA.)
I EMBRACE my role in my marriage. I EMBRACE the fact that YES I WANT TO respect and submit to my husband. (I totally fail at this some times, but I'm a work in progress.) But I WANT TO because… I am CALLED to do so. && My husband is called to understand me, love me, honor me…
1 Peter 3:7, "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." (ESV)
In a relationship that is rooted in Christ–there is equality, because honestly… where I stand with God outweighs any other relationship. In the workplace–does it matter that the man next to me gets paid more?? I could care less. Because in our standing with God–in my salvation with God… no Jew, no Gentile, male or female. He loves us all the same.
I think the American culture has… breeded this kind of competeitve spirit between man and woman–when I think all along, we are designed to help and compliment each other, not compete, not be equal–because we were all given different talents, missions, traits, gifts… etc.
I felt like that was a lot of babbling. Haha. But… anyway… Lord willing, it made sense. Hahah. God bless everyone!
The Feminist movement today is far from the Suffrage Movement, which fought for the equality women deserved under the law. The movement has continued to evolve into a scary liberal movement. Now it is mainly about diminishing the role of men, "gaining” our independence and abortion on demand. A commitment is not necessary, marriage is replaced with free love and as many casual sexual relations as you want; no commitment. God intended man and woman to be together and to celebrate each other’s differences; we each bring something to table that complements and strengthens. The tenets of the feminist movement do not embrace Biblical truths; leading women into bondage instead of truly liberating them.
Such a good description. I couldn't have said it better. The 60's fem movement was all about free love, sex with whoever, and no commitment. Sadly, they thought this would make them "free" but really, it was something that would just put them into more bondage.
AGGGH – this is such a huge topic – just like Paul, feminism can be misunderstood – there are so many streams, factions and opinions within the feminist movement. For me the main point of feminism is to give women choices – and to recognize and value those choices as equally important as the choices that men make. So if I decide I want to be a lawyer, I should be able to do that as easily as if I want to be a mother and if I want to do both that should also be possible.
I'm thankful to the feminist movement for the fact that they lobbied hard for equal pay for the same jobs, excellent maternity and paternity allowances, the right to vote as equals and be part of the democratic process.
As a Christian, however I think God calls us to different things at different times – so today I'm a leader and a manager who works full time in Christian ministry – but next year things could change and God might call me to stay at home, and be a wife and a mother and I have to be ok with that – my value is not in what I do, my job title or even in being a woman – my value and worth comes through serving Jesus with all that I am and with whatever he asks me to.
Ok that's definitely enough from me – good topic!!
Bianca –
It's been a joy to discover your blog these past few months and to get to chat with you from time to time. I just wanted to let you know that I mentioned you on my blog today. Thanks for letting God speak through you!
My blog is at http://beautyinthestorm.blogspot.com – not the one listed. That's a team blog. 🙂 ~ Dionna
I think feminism has lost its way… it started as an opportunity to give women opportunities, but then seems to have continued to go on and on and on maybe even beyond its usefulness? there is a time for everything under the sun… Some things are not for always.
It makes me sad that folks think Paul is anti-women. I feel just the opposite. He hung out with and was taught by women – why would he do this if he didn't like them? I just don't get this. Saying Paul is anti-women is taking scriptures out of context and another reason why it is so important to know the whole of scripture.
Love me some Pauline theology, and I'm a woman. Does that make me a mysog… misog… miss-og… oh whatevs. Does it make me hate women too? Me thinks not.
Look out, lady! I've been thinking about this same topic A LOT lately…and I've been working on a blog post 😉
Bottom line — if there is equal grace for everyone and and God looks at us and sees his children (not different genders), then does gender even matter? God is ALL about equality! Not "the boys club," and not "woman power." Equality.
Jesus makes it clear that gender isn't an issue, he spoke with women when Rabbis would not. He invited women to be part the group that followed him everywhere. He was pleased when a woman (Mary) took a seat with the other men to learn (LEARN, educating women just didn't happen back then, women were all too often considered property). The woman at the well was a female teacher…she shared the story of her encounter with Jesus at the well with those in her town.
And, I think Paul was just as much about equality as Jesus was. He applauded women who held church gatherings in their homes. He learned from women. He called them out as people to be respected and taken care of in several places in his letters. Paul's strength was really relating to people, finding common ground. And, if you read contextually and historically what he says in those letters, it's not about male domination at all. It was about the message of Jesus Christ. I actually just finished reading a great (Christian) book helping to contextualize some of this called 10 Lies the Church Tells Women, by Lee Grady. He sheds light to the importance of context, including the controversial text in his letters. Context is king.
All that said, someone will always argue one way or the other, but, for me, if GRACE is what it's all about, then who cares. God gave us a message to share and live, not to sit on.
On feminism…mostly, in as much as it's tied to equality, I may be the biggest feminist of them all. However, a hate-filled and selfish feminism? No thanks. Do I think that there is some work to be done culturally to bring light places where inequality operates? Absolutely. Do I think women, especially, need encouragement from other women so they break out of boxes they've put themselves based upon cultural expectations? Absolutely. Do women and men differ emotionally, psychologically and physically? Of course. But differences do not diminish the importance of equality…then we'd all be clones.
Thank you, pretty lady!
Ok Bianca – I can comment only to your first question – but even on that I can't stay short.
I have to say – I do like protection from harassment, rights to work and vote, etc. in this society. However, I consider that not feminism, but God brought about such a change.
I come from a country where feminism can be practiced till you are blue in your face, however, certain aspects or women rights ( like real not theoretical protection from harassment at work) might be overlooked because of general disrespect to the law and overall corruption.
On the other hand, the real positive change happened in this country because of the overall respect to the law at that time and willingness to review certain cases and bring about logical solutions. Now, respect to the law stemmed from godliness. We all are sinners – but even in our sin we have either respect or disrespect to the law, to the right and wrong.. Next, government and any form of authority, leave alone any form of "freedom" should be respected only as far as they do not go against God's will and His perfect order for our lives.
What current feministic movements do – they take governmental law and manipulate it further and further from reflecting God's order, being fueled by ungodly motives (perhaps righteous in their own eyes, but not according to God's Word). Therefore, some current feministic "rights'" and ideas definitely go against God's will – abortions, abandoning family roles, disrespecting fellow females who think differently, disrespecting men in some extreme forms. It is a deception, rejection of God and His all-sufficient love. It will bring nothing good to individuals practicing in it. Furthermore, once individual disrespects few aspects of God’s law, they often can’t teach their children to revere His word as a whole. Without godliness, governmental law isn’t going to function in a way it should – it will be used as a tool to satisfy individuals with power and access to it. When Godless society is being raised, everyone, including, (maybe even especially), women, will suffer greatly.
Yeah. I'm going to have to bow out.
When I just got saved, I was angry with God every time I would see description of polygamy in the Bible. I cried and prayed He would show me why it was the way it was. He did. He showed me that if it was left up to men (an women), polygamy would still be a norm. The reason – sin. What stopped it – His grace. Feministic movements had nothing to do with this. Feminism can't protect us from adulteries, cheating, rape, from divorces and abuse. It can't heal us from brokenness that sin brought to men and women. But He can. We can hate sin that puts us in bondage, but if we fall prey to enemy’s deception and start hating his instruments – people of whatever gender who sin- we will be crushed and will be lost. Jesus was not feminist – He was and IS Savior. He did not tell us to be proudly “independent”. He taught us to serve and love. In fact, Jesus said He is there to fulfill the Law – God’s Law – not to overturn it. And God’s Law requires payment for our shortcomings – and He made that payment, leaving us grace to love others in their shortcomings in return.
Well, I am a female, I am a Churched and my beief on feminism is this:
If God intended for women to be able to do the same thing as a man than we would be made at least more alike than we are. I believe that there are some jobs that only men can do and some jobs that only women can do and that there are are a few jobs that both of us can do. I really can't stand what the feminism act has done as to what they want all women to think, like they should hate men because they aren't good and are cheaters and blah blah blah. I mean I like the opportunities that have come about, but I think over the last years it has gone far beyond what it should have. The bottom line to me is this – we were born into sin and therefore none of us, men or women, are good. It is by God's grace and His incredible sacrifice of His Son that we are able to be called good in Him. I think God calls us to different things at different times and for different people. Can a women be a constuction worker? Sure. Will she be able to do everything in that job that a man can do? I don't think so. Good topic, it really gets you thinking! 🙂 Love you, Bianca! Praying for you and Matt! Have a blessed Monday!!
Hmm, a topic I've spent much time on over the years, working out the "traditional" upbringing of a small-town conservative evangelical church environment and my own inklings over the years that perhaps that perspective wasn't the only (or most) Biblical way to see things. I don't know if I like the term feminism to describe myself or my philosophies about men and women and relationships and the church. But some would likely call me feminist, because I have grown very comfortable with an egalitarian perspective based on the concept of mutual submission and equal opportunity based on individual gifts and talents (even my fairly conservative preacher dad leaned a bit this way, and was comfortable with women in some traditionally male church leadership roles) – I particularly found William Web's work on the hermeneutics of cultural analysis to be very helpful as I sorted through these issues along with scripture.
I don't have much to say about the feminist movement as a whole, but I will say that Paul's "misogynistic" comments must be viewed through the context as a whole. Most of what he preached was actually feminist in that day. As we try to figure out how that plays out in the church today, in terms of what women should be, and we struggle with what was contextual and what is still to be practiced today, we must keep in mind that women cannot be spectators. Whether we are to be in leadership or eldership or not, we are still valuable members of the body who bring a different perspective and new ideas. We're still called to evangelism and still called to serve the body as a whole-just as men are. How that translates into leadership depends on how you view God's gifting – Does God only gift and equip men for certain jobs? Or do we believe that we can identify and train those same qualities in women to perform those jobs?
Feminism and the Bible what a fun topic! Honestly (no sarcasm intended at all). There are so many great points made by feminists. It is good to challenge the notion that women are nothing more than objects of pleasure for men (an idea that various media outlets fervently try to instill in girls the instant that they are conceived (hyperbole intended) in order to sell them the products they “need” to emulate the “desirable” women that they see on whatever hit show is “in” at that nanosecond). A woman's appearance has no direct correlation with whether she will be a good mother, wife, or even what she will contribute to society. However, I don't agree with the idea that women are better than men or that men are obsolete. We share a lot of similarities and differences with our male counterparts. But I love that it was Jesus’ perfect plan for us to work together. For a husband and wife to (as cheesy as it may sound) compliment one another (not complete each other, only Jesus completes women AND men). The more that I learn about men and how different their perspective is from my own, the more I marvel at the wisdom and innovative power of my Creator. He knows what He is doing. Yes, He gave us (women and men) different strengths, but that is okay. I don't think that women need to try to become men (an endeavor that many women have consciously embarked upon) (that, to me, is the equivalent of an ear trying to become an eye). We should, however, strive to be content as we have been created and seek to please the Lord, as He desires to be pleased
<img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Jo7lJoQhtjw/TAlDTr3yAoI/AAAAAAAAO9s/ovGJUziAuRE/s1600/feminism+poster+motivationalz+com.jpg">
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I think I probably don't know much about feminism and how it relates to the bible. I know what greater society says about feminism…loosely. I think at the end of the day feminism should mean that women are free to do anything of their own free will (as opposed to being oppressed), and choosing to obey what the Bible says about a woman's role in her family is part of that freedom.
I agree about being thankful for the right to vote, etc. God is awesome and sovereign. However, I question the need to have any title added to our identity.
If we are in Christ then we are already free and therefore do not need, in my opinion, another title to go along with it. We need Jesus. Not Jesus plus feminism. I praise Him for giving me freedom to walk in the ways He has shown me, and freedom to serve my husband and family without concern of what the world thinks.
Wow, Bianca!!! I can hardly wait to hear how you package all of this for us in October. Good thing I trust you, huh? 😀 Thank you for taking on the tough subjects!
i wrote a post about this last month, actually, but it was far less cerebral and perhaps even shallow because, to be honest, i don't know how to speak theologically about this.
i would call myself a feminist because i love being feminine. i'm not necessarily prissy, but i love all parts of being a woman. and a strong woman who loves god, at that.
i believe that, as a woman, i am better at certain things than my male counterpart and i wouldn't try to do the things that he can do as a result of being masculine. some things i'm just not genetically equipped for and designed to do.
above, jason addressed the idea of women being in the home and being made to feel less than because of that. and then there are those of us who don't have a family, who pay our own bills, and are seen as too independent and strong by the men around us.
i believe that, in relationships, if a man is at his healthiest, and he can be fully man in all the correct ways, then a woman will be at her feminine best. which is to say, if a man is threatened by a woman's strength and independence, then i would venture to say that she is not responsible for his insecurity. (also assuming the woman is at her healthiest and best as well.)
i believe that women, like men, can do anything -including lead & preach- but, again, i just think there are certain things that, by design, one may be better equipped for than the other.
sadly, and i've seen this in too many churches (in particular charismatic churches), there is an attitude of oppression over women which makes my stomach churn. still, i'm not on some warpath to end this – i simply choose another place of worship where men are free to be men and women are allowed to be women (which doesn't necessarily mean they are setting up the hospitality room).
love this topic, bianca.
xo
Here is a thought on the issue from John Piper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqgGBMUuH7M
Boy, have you opened a can of worms! One that needs to be opened, even if we're afraid that the conversation inside the can will be messy and stinky and overheated.
I'm a Christian woman in seminary. The only spot of estrogen this semester in a preaching class of 20. I fully support feminism's initial goals: for the right to vote, equality of women, and the desire to be a force for social good in the world through women coming together. But we lost our way, sisters.
I know we lost our way when we told women they could "have it all" and then witnessed the tendency for all of us to crash and burn under the weight of "being everything" at the same time.
We completely missed the boat when we insisted women a) become like men and b) decided we didn't need men at all. Tragic, since God formed this Blessed Alliance in the beginning.
And we're severely off course today, as we tell women they don't have to do it all, but they should focus on being a sex object for as long as is humanely possible, twisting their bodies into submission and showing off as much possible…to get the attention of those men we supposedly . . . don't need. Aargh.
I'm tackling these very topics on my online video studies, starting with the amazing truth about how God made Eve to be an *ezer* in Genesis 2:18—a strong helper, warrior, and rescuer to Adam. Hope you'll check it out to get a vision for how we can work together beautifully for God's Kingdom. http://onewomaninseminary.blogspot.com/2010/08/ne… (And for the record, I'm with author Dorothy Sayers–who calls herself a "humanist" regarding this topic. I'm for both men and women being treated with dignity as image-bearers of God.)
I must say the bible is a sexist book. From my understanding doesn’t the original sin come from Eve when she is tempted to eat the forbidden fruit by the devil himself. I mean we (man)just blamed the only female at the time for making GOD angry by her actions and not only that but convinced us (man) to take a bite and get kicked out as well.
Now when it comes to the womens rights movement….I say in part horay!! However I say with power comes responsibility, and in certain instances I can say women take bites of the burrito at both ends and don’t like to be called on it and that isn’t fair. I could go on and on Bianca this topic has way too many angles.
Oh 98 LMHS rules too 😉
There is so much to say on this topic! I would encourage you to check out this link from Carolyn McCulley, a Christian woman who used to be a feminist; she was a Women's Studies major in college and all of that. This is just one teaching I've listened to recently which whetted my appetite for more knowledge on this subject, she has many more resources on the topic.
Go to : http://www.thisisnext.org/resources
Look down at the 2009 Conference and click on Radical Womanhood, you will not be disappointed. 🙂
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