Junior and I have been friends since youth group several years ago. Now he’s super smart, teaches the bible to young minds, and found a BIOLA girl to marry him in spite of his hilarious antics. We’ve been dialoging for months about how difficult it is to meander through the labyrinth of Christian dating, so we decided to go to the masses of the world wide web and stand on our soapboxes. For more ramblings about life and culture, you can check out his blog. If you agree with him, leave a comment. If you don’t agree with him, keep opening your soda cans with your teeth while singing Amazing Grace on your porch and throw stones at us [yes, that could be in the form of an anonymous comment]. Enjoy!
Christian dating has certainly become extremely complicated. I’ve heard sermons on the topic using the passage in Genesis where God put Adam asleep and when he woke up, Eve was there. Therefore, do nothing and “wait on the Lord.” I have never heard a sermon preached on Judges 21 when the tribe of Benjamin kidnapped the daughters of Shiloh and made them their wives as “instructive” for the same topic. They are both OT narratives. Why apply one and not the other?
I’ve read Christian dating books such as the popular I Kissed Dating Goodbye, by Joshua Harris. Although it should have been called I Said Hello to Bad Exegesis. The premise of the book basically was to avoid dating at all cost because it was somehow more spiritual. Then there’s Henry Cloud’s How to Get a Date Worth Keeping, which makes dating a commandment and to date everyone in sight.
With so much unclear direction and different authorities saying numerous things, it’s no wonder why women have taken the subject so seriously, and I argue a little too seriously. When I first started attending Biola University as an undergraduate I thought I was in the Land of Milk and Honeys. I would casually ask out girls to coffee just to get to know them. To my amazement, every time the word “coffee” was mentioned the girl reacted like I asked her to bear my children. Why are women taking something so simple and making it complicated? (This is where I see older men crack a smile and have “the talk about women” with me.) Why does a woman feel if she can’t see herself marrying the guy on the spot, she can’t even have coffee with him? Is anything in life that instantaneous? Consider all your closet relationships. Did they happen over night? No. And yet you expect arguably the most important human relationship, your spouse, to happen that way? Baffling.
No matter how you pour it, coffee doesn’t mean marriage. If the guy has the intestinal fortitude to ask you to coffee it might be worth going. There are no obligations afterwards. Some coffee dates might be good and some not but at least you get to experience getting to know different types of people. As relational beings, we all benefit from it. Who knows, maybe you end up actually enjoying yourself. In short, don’t take dating so serious and simply enjoy getting to know people because you’re stressing all of us out.
I wish I knew why we make it so complicated! lol
Great thoughts and you are right its just coffee… getting to know some one. I had a guy ask to me to go get coffee over a year and he has ended up being one of my best friends! We both were just seeking friendship and it was worth letting go of the worry “is this the right guy or not”…
Junior, I agree with 75% of what you’re saying, but here’s my two cents:
1. Yes, I DO know instantaneously if I’m attracted to a guy. SO–why waste his money and my time?
2. My heart is for ministry and loving God’s people. If some brotha’ doesn’t see eye-to-eye with me, why should I bond over a cup of coffee?
3. If I like a guy, I know his heart/life/intentions, then I see no problem going to coffee. But on the forefront of my mind I need to tether my heart to the fact that IT’S JUST COFFEE.
okay but is it ever JUST coffee??? I think that for a typical single girl, take the chance… but I dont know if you go in thinking it’s JUST coffee… because there’s usually a motive. The point is that they want to get to know you better… they aren’t worried about quenching your thirst or making sure you are caffeinated to finish your research paper… coffee is an “easy” way to ask someone out if you aren’t sure of what they’ll say… because if they say no, you can always use the age old reasoning… “it’s just coffee”. 🙂 Now, before anyone disagrees… I think it’s smart. I just think that if a guy asks me to coffee, I’m not going if I know there’s no future (not to be confused with not being sure there’s a future). For exactly the reasons Bi said… why waste time and money and LEAD HIM ON??? Because by accepting the invitation to JUST coffee… you’re giving the guy hope. You are encouraging his efforts. So even though this might JUST be coffee… it is coffee that could lead to more. And as everything in dating… shouldn’t we be careful of the things that could lead to more?
Now… with that said… I am looking at this from the perspective of a youth pastor on staff at a church… so if someone from my church asks me to coffee… there’s added pressure.
I’m also a girl who connects quick, wears my heart on my sleeve and falls fast and hard… so I am careful about who I open up with.
Yes, coffee is just coffee, but on the other hand, I don’t agree with getting to know a man as a close friend. I’ve done it and it makes things awkward if/when you marry someone else…That friendship must change because you have a closer man as your friend. Does that make sense??
Maybe I’ve been married too long… or maybe it’s that I’ve always related to guys better than girls but I’ve got to agree with Junior here. Unless there is an obvious mismatch between the two people (like he grates on your nerves) why not have a cup of coffee? Perhaps the relationship never goes further than that (romantically speaking) but perhaps you make a good friend or a business connection, etc.? Spending time with a variety of people is good for human beings. I do agree Bianca that if after one coffee outing there isn’t a “romantic spark” don’t continue to go out with him (wasting his time & money). 🙂
Bianca ~ I love your two cents! Great thoughts here! Your second point is something I always look for in a guy… the guy and I have to see eye-to-eye on ministry and loving people! My heart is in the same place as yours! I would go for coffee but if I don’t think the guy sees eye-to-eye with me then I most likely will not hang out with him frequently. I even see this with some (not all) of my friendships… so many thoughts going through my head right now! Maybe I should write a post with my thoughts this week! lol
I enjoy this post and I agree nearly completely. In response to Bianca’s post, even if I’m not instantly attracted to a guy, sometimes I still accept. In my mind, its sort of like doing practice interviews in preparation for the real thing. Of course, I have to gauge how serious I think he is about me and if his ego will be demolished when its the first and last coffee, but …
My question to both of you is … is a woman supposed to sit around and wait to be asked to coffee? Or is she supposed to go after those coffee dates herself?
Just curious.
I agree with him that he says to just relax and its just coffee….its true! We don’t have to decide that’s our spouse over that first cup of coffee. BUT….dating is for the purpose of marriage. Josh Harris’ point in his book is to not say goodbye to dating, its to say goodbye to casual dating: relationships that lead nowhere. He wanted a purposeful, headed towards marriage relationship. And if we just go around casually dating people, with no intention of marriage, thats a problem…rethink why you’re dating 🙂
But also…I think there is so much talk of WHO your dating and what THAT person is supposed to be like. Ladies, while its key who the other person is, if he leads you back to the Lord and is a spiritual leader, etc…right now, if you’re not dating, its time to focus on who YOU are. Are you the woman to be and the wife to find? Make that your goal…to be a godly woman worth pursuing!!
Thanks, Bianca, for posting this!
Great post, Bianca. I was hoping that my dear daughter had already commented.
First … I’ll give my thoughts on Jr.’s post. Great job! Why are so many Christian girls afraid to “go out for coffee”? My daughter gets so frustrated with the other young ladies in her church, because of this. My daughter (with 7 brothers) likes having guys as friends. She hates the fact that if she goes out for coffee with a guy, that everyone makes such a big deal out of it. I want to also say that, for my high school kids, I liked the philosophy of I KIssed Dating Good-bye. We have not allowed our Jr. High & High School kids to jump in and out of the typical teen romances. But … when they are young adults … we encourage them to get to know a lot of different people.
Now … let’s look at Bianca’s “two-cents”. I have to say that sometimes that “instantaneous attraction”, or not … may change. You just might find out some day that one of your good “guy friends” whom you “could never marry” … becomes that man of your dreams. Seriously. My husband and I were friends for 2 years. We had no interest in each other romantically. Then … BANG … the Lord opened our eyes and we got engaged on our 3rd date. (I was just 19.)
And … gotta comment on Carrie’s comment. I so disagree with her thinking that young ladies shouldn’t get to know young men as close friends. As I said, my husband and I were close friends for 2 years before we became “romantically involved”. I also had another very close guy friend (which I dated on and off through high school). He became good friends with my husband in college, and he was a groomsman in our wedding. Yes, one of my old boyfriends was in my wedding. Because … we had a GREAT relationship, based on friendship. Yes, when you get married, those friendships will change. But, you can be friends with guys. It is OKAY … and healthy.
Enough “words from Mama” today.
Always LOVE the great topics that you post about. Keep writing. And … B … watch out for those “good guy friends”. You never know what the Lord has in mind for you. 🙂
mama of 13
@Rebecca: Your reasoning is my reasoning as well!
@Diandra: We BOTH have pressure because of ministry. Since I’m on staff I have added pressure to be above reproach. I know now everyone will understand, but I might be perceived as a skank if I went out with everyone from church. You feel me?
@Carrie: Your philosophy mirrors the fabulous movie, “When Harry Met Sally.” I concur, my friend. I concur.
@Michelle: You’re my sister from another Mister. The end.
@NameNazi: If I wasn’t fully attracted to someone AND not in ministry, I think I would go out. But there’s so much at stake for me. Plus, I really don’t have time for coffee :/
@Emma: WORD. Don’t just date around. Be intentional.
@Mama: I’m so glad you liked it. I never like letting you down 🙂 You can ask Cassie… I stress out!?
Okay, I LOVE the perspective about not encouraging dating in high school. It makes a healthy young adult.
BUT–what about me? I can’t go out with a lot of people because I would look like I’m leading people on.
Furthermore, if I do accept guys get SUPER crazy and think I’m their Proverbs 31 woman. One guy said, “I’m going out with my pastor’s daughter!” Yes, it’s true. And yes, I died. Needless to say, I went SIX YEARS without dating someone.
Why do we like to complicate things? HA. I can’t front because in the past I would make the lamest excuse when a girl asked to grab some coffee or just hang out, “Sorry, im busy uhhh cutting my hair this afternoon, yeah” – my reasons were mainly because I kinda knew I just did not click with that person, wondered what was the motive for asking and what if I go this once and they want to go again and again….I don’t want to have to deal with having to tell them no so I will just make a wack excuse. I recently decided to not complicate my life and say OK sometimes, If:
1) She knows Jesus and loves Him!!
2) Has not been making the coffee date rounds with the entire church, etc.
3) Is not weird. Sorry I will be honest and say YES there are sometimes some weird folks in the body, I love them but…you know. Hey I may be weird to some people! We def need to vibe somehow.
4) Was not cutting my hair = )
Obviously do not go thinking you have to open your heart up over a cup of coffee. Choose who you think is worth opening up to and allowing in your life over time – not just over one coffee “date”.
Let’s try not complicate it I guess.
I could see the point, but if you go out with everyone doesn’t that make you accessible to everyone?
I want to be untouched and held in regard. I don’t want to go out with everyone just because I can. I want to be pursued and then give my acceptance of a date.
Love, Miss Old Fashion
Back in El Salvador my pastor there just to said this “be careful with those coffee date with smell of pillow” cuidado con el cafecito con olor a Alhomada. sometimes we women can be vulnerable and mistaken a simply friendship with something else.. let’s just keep praying for God’s plan and Mr. right will show up if it is meant to be, Mr.Right Now never a good choice.
Just some thoughts…
Before my husband was my husband, he was my friend who I wasn’t attracted to but who I thought very highly of, and the attraction came later as I grew to know him better. I also have a friend whose husband was her best friend in high school but she was never attracted to him. He was everything that she wanted in husband but she was not even slightly attracted to him so she one day prayed “if this is who I am supposed to marry, then give me an attraction to him” and the next time she saw him she was attracted to him. I think getting to know someone over coffee or other casual dates is a very good idea because you never know how your thoughts towards someone (and even attraction) may change as you get to know them.
Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we as women interpret coffee as a date? When it’s just coffee.
I’ve learned a long time ago not to read too much into a coffee meeting/ get together. In fact I look at it as an interview where I’m the employer (helps with thought organization). I usually buy my own coffee this way there’s no misunderstanding then I try to keep the conversation neutral by either continuing with the conversation that led up to the coffee meeting or asking their opinion about something heard in church or read in the paper. If I feel like this person is showing more interest and I’m not feeling it, then I politely throw it out there that I’m not looking and enjoy my single life and if he still doesn’t get it then I bluntly tell him. Worst case scenario you never have coffee again but gained the experience or you become really great friends.
Bianca you’re right about knowing instantaneously if you’re attracted to a guy, but that’s strictly physical. It doesn’t determine if you and that guy are capable of being friends, or what his connections are, he could be another door to networking. He could even be your connection to that special someone.
Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we as women interpret coffee as a date? When it’s just coffee.
I’ve learned a long time ago not to read too much into a coffee meeting/ get together. In fact I look at it as an interview where I’m the employer (helps with thought organization). I usually buy my own coffee this way there’s no misunderstanding then I try to keep the conversation neutral by either continuing with the conversation that led up to the coffee meeting or asking their opinion about something heard in church or read in the paper. If I feel like this person is showing more interest and I’m not feeling it, then I politely throw it out there that I’m not looking and enjoy my single life and if he still doesn’t get it then I bluntly tell him. Worst case scenario you never have coffee again but gained the experience or you become really great friends.
Bianca you’re right about knowing instantaneously if you’re attracted to a guy, but that’s strictly physical. It doesn’t determine if you and that guy are capable of being friends, or what his connections are, he could be another door to networking. He could even be your connection to that special someone.
You might enjoy my blog where I also critique Josh Harris’s book:
http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com
“I Kissed Dating Goodbye: Wisdom or Foolishness?”
Unfortunately Josh Harris is quick to point out the defects of dating but won’t admit the problems and defects with his approach. Even at his own church he acknowledged a number of problems but doesn’t share them on his website.
Oh Joshua Harris’s book kept me out of a LOT of trouble in high school. Sure it’s extreme, but EVERY teenager is extreme.
I think before the coffee date is is good to get to know someone through hanging out in groups, serving in various ministries, or maybe chatting at church. I think the coffee date is if you have a little bit more interest in someone and would like to get to know them on a more personal level–like maybe a potential boyfriend. I nearly drove my poor husband away back in the day…he wasn’t allowed to sit with me at church, and once when had our first official date I brought along my best friend, because I was afraid of what people at church would think. I still feel bad, but he still wanted to marry me 🙂 I think I was buck-wild and extreme! Oh my, but after all at 23 he was my first boyfriend so I was just very cautious.
Hey, you are coming to Philly in March? Bring me some in-n-out!!!! JK 🙂
love,
mon
Wow, this is cool dialogue!
Ok, the reason I’m not friends with guys is because I have been friends with guys and, like Harry told Sally, “inevitably one will end up liking the other.” This is true.
I don’t have time to return the phone calls of my best friends let alone sit around a coffee shop waxing philosophically about 2-ply toilet paper and Jersey Shore.
For me (personal statement), I’m super cautious of my heart and other people’s heart. With that being said. I totally put WAY too much pressure on this whole issue.
@Miss Old Fashion: I love that you want to save yourself for a super serious relationship. I know the desire/pressure/excitement to find the “One” and move into a relationship.
If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? If you’re young (17-24), I’d say you’re in a good spot. But be careful not to turn into ME. I waited and intentionally kept away from all men, dates, or “appearances of evil.” Retrospectively, I think it stunted my emotionality and relational experiences. This is so hard to write because I thought I was doing the right thing.
For some, this is the way to go. But that doesn’t mean it’s the ONE way to go. Don’t lower your standards, but also be open to meeting new people.
As a Christian conservative girl I have fallen into this trap too many times. I scare off guys I barely know because of my over-eagerness to get to know them. And yes “coffee” does not equal marriage. LOL Girls are stupid sometimes! For the 1st time in my life I feel like my upbringing is a detriment to me having healthy guy relationships, and I never thought that day would come.
I think the reason we complicate it so much is we don’t have good models of functional, Godly, relationships. As a result our generation (the 20-30 something set and younger) are somewhat relationally stunted. I think the reticence to just go for coffee is that while we do not have physical hook-ups (I hope), Christians are notorious for emotional hook-ups, where males and females hang out, become ridiculously emotionally intimate, all while there is no real level of clearly defined intentionality on the part of the male (in general)…and of course, we ladies indulge that nonsense. If the goal of coffee and dating in general is to see if you can walk in God ordained, ministry minded, covenant relationship than go for it, but if the motivation is to “kick it”- which usually only leads to miscommunication, frustration, and hurt feelings- why waste anyone’s time?
Melinda said:
“Oh Joshua Harris’s book kept me out of a LOT of trouble in high school. Sure it’s extreme, but EVERY teenager is extreme.”
My comment on this is that what Harris promotes is more geared toward teenagers or as you say one in high school. One of the big problems with “kissing dating goodbye” is that people assume that this should apply to all ages which I certainly believe it shouldn’t. Sadly this isn’t something Harris acknowledges and also hasn’t acknowledge various problems that has occurred with this approach.
I discuss this more in my blog critiquing Harris’s book.
My latest entry I talk about the book “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye.” In the introduction of the book the author talks about all these women that embraced the “kissing dating goodbye philosophy” and then she is puzzled that a number of women she lead in a bible study didn’t get married a number of years later. Sad she didn’t seem to even ask the question if maybe the two were related. That is maybe that holding so tightly to “kissing dating goodbye” even as they went beyond their teenage years caused them to kiss marriage goodbye.
It is certainly something to think about. Maybe the actions that “kissing dating goodbye” teaches such as being fearful of relationships with those of the opposite sex and not learning social skills, especially single men not learning how to approach women, causes people to “kiss marriage goodbye?” Something to think about.
Steve
http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com
“I Kissed Dating Goodbye: Wisdom or Foolishness?”
Okay, so, my thoughtssss! My cousin once told me that she never turned down a coffee date unless she full-on got creepy vibes from him. But usually it was people she knew through someone at church, etc. She said, first of all, if a guy works up the nerves to ask a girl, she didn’t want to crush him. She may not see anything in the future, but HOW do you know? Sometimes we don’t get the opportunity to get to know men in a church service every week with hundreds of people. If after the first date there wasn’t nothing there, she definitely wouldn’t lead him on and accept a 2nd date!
But a first date is no. big. deal. There is a difference between going on a date, and DATING someone. That’s where I think I Kissed Dating Goodbye has it all wrong. I would have no problem going out for coffee with 40 different guys in my lifetime. But I don’t see myself seriously dating more than 2 or 3.
Church culture has turned asking a girl out for coffee into such a big deal. The writer’s right when he says women immediately jump to marriage and get freaked out. It’s an invitation to get to know someone. I think that’s flattering. My parents and I often talk about how 30-40 years ago, the Christian dating scene was different. Boys saw a girl they liked. Asked them out for coffee within a couple of weeks. They went out. It flopped or it continued! And consequently, I think there were less young adult singles around. Because their culture in the church at that time gave men the freedom to ask without it being this “big news.” My Dad constantly marvels at our churches, he looks around and sees so many of my beautiful 20-something single friends and says, “In my day, a new girl like that couldn’t walk into a church of 500+ and walk out without a coffee invitation.”
Andddd, I think we as women have caused this. In a lot of ways. And silly dating books. Men are confused. So they’d rather stay home and play videogames with each other than take a risk. I choose to say yes to coffee and take a stand against reversing this. 😉 Hahahhaha!
Good thoughts everyone! fun to read.
I also think there’s a difference in saying not to go out on coffee dates with guys and expect it to be just a friendship thing… versus DO NOT BE FRIENDS WITH SOMEONE OF THE OPPOSITE SEX UNLESS YOU WANT TO MARRY THEM. I have always had more friends that are guys than girls. But I’ve spent time with those guys in settings that could NOT be mistaken as a date. Group settings, church events, or even just bringing another friend along so it isn’t just 2 of us. If I want to get to know someone better, but don’t want it to appear as a date… I’ll phone a friend 🙂 My best friend (who happens to be a man) and I had a conversation about this yesterday. I think in a work setting (ex: we’re having a meeting and tired of the office, lets continue over Starbucks) then it is not assumed it could be a date. Anything else… fair game. Any other time you go one-on-one to do really pretty much anything with someone of the opposite sex it could turn out to be a date for one or the other of you.
The other exception I see is if you have an established friendship with someone and you have both established the fact that you are not interested in dating each other. It is strictly platonic.
But as Bianca mentioned in one of her comments, most friendships with people of the opposite sex, one or the other ends up having romantic feelings towards the other. It’s something like 90% of all relationships. Just something else to think about 🙂
GREAT discussion.
My daughter (age 24) was seriously interested in a young man for most of last year. He lived out of the country, so they were getting to know each other through IMing. He was planning to move back to her area, but they were not committed to each other at all. During this time, a young man asked her out for coffee. She said, “Yes.” and thoroughly enjoyed her coffee time. She gained a new friend. This young man was interested, but she clearly let him know that she had feeling for another man. They chose to be “good friends” … and it was GOOD. #1 young man returned to the area … they went out a few times to see if things would work … things didn’t. Awhile later, dear daughter was thinking about young man #2 who had become such a very good friend, and she realized that she wouldn’t want to give up that friendship if she were to marry someone else. Which made her realize, “Why do I keep saying that we can only be “good friends”.” Suddenly … an attraction was born. She honestly went to young man #2, shared her thoughts, and they are now “in a relationship”. We will see where this leads, but it wouldn’t have led anywhere if she had not accepted the coffee date.
I am a BIG fan for I Kissed Dating Good-bye for Jr. High and High School Kids. But, my 6 young adult children have easily moved from that high school mindset into healthy young adult relationships/friendships. We had our first 6 kids in 6 years (3 girls and 3 boys), so our Big Kids are used to having a lot of friends of the opposite gender. 🙂
Bianca … I would encourage friendships with guys. If the GUY has unrealistic expectations, just clearly tell them that you are ONLY looking for friendship. If they can’t handle that … their loss. But … you might find out that guys CAN be good friends. And, you WILL make someone a wonderful Proverbs 31 woman, I’m sure. But, YUCK … when they want to tell you that on your first coffee date. 🙂
Hugs,
Mama D.
Sorry Boys, Coffee is a Date
http://tumblr.com/x1j6bmq1g
Here some good blog entries about “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”:
http://drjames.blogspot.com/2009/06/ever-kiss-dating-goodbye-and-regret-it.html
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/relationship/features/17083-i-kissed-dating-goodbye-but-where-did-it-go
The author’s point in the latter blog entry is that “kissing dating goodbye” caused him to loose social skills in approaching single women. Something to think about.
So I’m a little behind in replying, but I think something that is often missed is the fact that you don’t have to go on a date alone to get to know a guy. I’ve gotten to know quite a few guys throughout the years by ministering with them, playing sports together, hanging out with the family, deep conversations at church, etc.. Without the pressure of being on a date, I have the freedom to truly be me while seeing them at their best/worst. Things of course would change somewhat if a relationship really developed, but coffee really isn’t the only way to get to know a guy!
If a coffee date were JUST a coffee date, then go for it. However, I find it hard to believe ‘it’s just coffee’ when the guy has to work up the guts to ask. If it’s just coffee – why the pressure? Women pick up on this. We know when it took guts to ask, so that tells us it means something MORE than just coffee to you guys.
Also, I completely agree with Lindsey. As Christians we so often choose to replace the ‘no-no’ of a physical relationship with an emotional one – which can be just as damaging. As much as we wish it weren’t true, the Harry Met Sally Law will not change. I’m not saying we should avoid opposite sex friendships – but we should desperately guard our hearts. If we are dependent on Christ for all our needs – including our emotional ones – then we can handle those kind of friendships. Otherwise, much heartache will ensue.
Lindsey said…
I think the reason we complicate it so much is we don’t have good models of functional, Godly, relationships. As a result our generation (the 20-30 something set and younger) are somewhat relationally stunted. I think the reticence to just go for coffee is that while we do not have physical hook-ups (I hope), Christians are notorious for emotional hook-ups, where males and females hang out, become ridiculously emotionally intimate, all while there is no real level of clearly defined intentionality on the part of the male (in general)…and of course, we ladies indulge that nonsense. If the goal of coffee and dating in general is to see if you can walk in God ordained, ministry minded, covenant relationship than go for it, but if the motivation is to “kick it”- which usually only leads to miscommunication, frustration, and hurt feelings- why waste anyone’s time?
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